Opinions on HeR's bold move: Positive, Negative, or Neutral?

[Ndfan1234]

Hello Herians As you may or may not know, in HeR's latest game, Sea of Darkness, there was a small mention in a character's text to the fact that she was a lesbian. There have been a few threads on here already with discussions about whether or not this should be included. Some of these have already been closed. On one of the threads, there were many outlooks on the inclusion, while on the other thread, there were a bunch of outlooks on various facets of the controversial subject. What I want to look at is what the HeR board community, as just a small bit of the large Herinteractive fanbase, has to say about this being in SEA, and what they think should happen in future games. I was inspired by this post among others on that thread to see on these boards, what the majority of people think of the move. So what's your opinion? Are you for it? Are you against it? Are you neutral towards it? Feel free to leave explanations for why you believe what you do (I know that this is a very sensitive topic and can start fights easily. If everyone explains themselves well and everyone is respectful, we can have a good discussion which might be beneficial to HeR in the future). Also, remember that beliefs on something, as well as religion, can be subjective to many people.

For myself personally, I am a Christian. So I don't believe LGBT is right, and therefore should not be included in future games if possible. I just disagree with a specific lifestyle. (Remember that "lifestyle" or "who they are" is a subjective argument. I believe one thing, but I understand and respect that you may believe it is the other way.) In fact, I am perfectly comfortable with it being mentioned in SEA. HeR was not "affirming" it as of yet. They took a neutral stance and included someone who was LGBT because there are in fact LGBT people in the world, just as there are different races and religions. Diversity is great because it shows the world. The world is diverse. Thus if Nancy Drew is representing all people of the world, there should be LGBT people. But I am addressing this now so that HeR can see that I (and probably others) would prefer not to see it again in the future because it could easily start to fall in the "affirming" category. (This is the difference between "affirming" something and being "neutral" on something, in case you are confused: Neutral is Nancy silently reading a text that a character is a lesbian and not mentioning it again. Not saying it's good, not saying it's bad, just nothing. At all. Affirming would be having a character and Nancy talk about being LGBT and having Nancy say, "It's ok to be homosexual. It's the exact same as heterosexual." That is where the line would be crossed for me, religiously. Having Nancy agree with something that I don't is crossing the line. But having her silently read a text about someone who is a lesbian is fine because there are lesbians in the world and they're being represented. Not affirmed. Just represented. I hope I made that clear because I have been criticized in the past for not being clear enough. Hopefully this is clear as crystal now). So in summary, I am fine with it being in the game but I would prefer it to not come back, especially if it were to come back in such a way that it falls into the affirming category.

You can quote other people of course, but it is mostly supposed to be a place to get a view at how many people there are that are thrilled with it and how many aren't happy at all.

[Mr.E]

I'm quite glad that someone made this post; it's good to have a forum to discuss this issue, since it definitely pertains to the future of HeR's games. I agree that it's incredibly important to keep this discussion civil and to remember to be tolerant of everyone's beliefs, regardless of whether or not they coencide with your own. That means not only refraining from attacking people for their opinions, but also being willing to actually read what people have to say and refraining from judgment. I know that trying not to judge is a concept endorsed wholeheartedly by the christian religion, and members of the LGBT community have had enough experience with prejudice and bigotry to know that judgment can be painful to receive, so hopefully we can all keep this conversation civil, kind, and productive.

Personally, I was thrilled to learn that Dagny has a female life partner. Growing up, I always looked for representation of people like me in the games, and the series always fell short in that regard. Although HeR has avoided including multiple subjects within the games (alcohol use, visual scenes of violence, the concept of religious views), the subject of romantic relationships has been addressed by almost every game, and always within the context of heterosexuality. If there was no mention of romantic relationships, or even attraction, at all within the games, this wouldn't matter, but when the content of the games constantly portrays characters as exclusively heterosexual, it starts to feel as though they're making a statement. In my opinion, the inclusion of an LGBT character returned the company's stance to one of more neutrality. I realize that not everyone agrees with me here, but I think that including an LGBT relationship within the game was not taking a stance -- it was simply representing a demographic that has gained increasing visibility within the past decade.

I don't think that HeR will have Nancy say something along the lines of "It's great that you're LGBT!" in a future game because honestly, that just seems awkward. As a member of the community, I would find a statement like this uncomfortable and unwarranted -- LGBT people are not asking for verbal validation or praise, they are simply asking for the right to exist without persecution or prejudice.

I would love to see more content like this in future games. I agree that it would be best if the games continued to take a neutral stance and recognize the existance of the LGBT community without addressing it in an awkward or forced way, either positively or negatively.

[Ndfan1234]

I'm quite glad that someone made this post; it's good to have a forum to discuss this issue, since it definitely pertains to the future of HeR's games. I agree that it's incredibly important to keep this discussion civil and to remember to be tolerant of everyone's beliefs, regardless of whether or not they coencide with your own. That means not only refraining from attacking people for their opinions, but also being willing to actually read what people have to say and refraining from judgment. I know that trying not to judge is a concept endorsed wholeheartedly by the christian religion, and members of the LGBT community have had enough experience with prejudice and bigotry to know that judgment can be painful to receive.

Personally, I was thrilled to learn that Dagny has a female life partner. Growing up, I always looked for representation of people like me in the games, and the series always fell short in that regard. Although HeR has avoided including multiple subjects within the games (alcohol use, visual scenes of violence, the concept of religious views), the subject of romantic relationships has been addressed by almost every game, and always within the context of heterosexuality. If there was no mention of romantic relationships, or even attraction, at all within the games, this wouldn't matter, but when the content of the games constantly portrays characters as exclusively heterosexual, it starts to feel as though they're making a statement. In my opinion, the inclusion of an LGBT character returned the company's stance to one of more neutrality. I realize that not everyone agrees with me here, but I think that including an LGBT relationship within the game was not taking a stance -- it was simply representing a demographic that has gained increasing visibility within the past decade.

I don't think that HeR will have Nancy say something along the lines of "It's great that you're LGBT!" in a future game because honestly, that just seems awkward. As a member of the community, I would find a statement like this uncomfortable and unwarranted -- LGBT people are not asking for verbal validation or praise, they are simply asking for the right to exist without persecution or prejudice.

I would love to see more content like this in future games. I agree that it would be best if the games continued to take a neutral stance and recognize the existance of the LGBT community without addressing it in an awkward or forced way, either positively or negatively.

Great response! This is exactly what I wanted to see :) I totally understand that you would want more representation! Which as I said, I think is fine if it doesn't go beyond that. Some people I've seen have said that they want the games to move toward having Nancy say stuff like that, which as you said is awkward, so I'm hoping it doesn't show up...

[CharleenaPurcel]

To tell you the truth I don't think it should be included. I get that it is out there but to me it doesn't say family friendly. If I were a mother and my kid was playing a game that I thought was safe and then suddenly they ask me what a Lesbian is my mind would instantly go "I don't want my kid finding out about this through a computer game."
I know that it is something that is happening and shouldn't be ignored, but also being a Christian I cringe inwardly anytime any kind of entertainment includes it. I just don't think that it belongs there, especially in a game series that wants to be family friendly

[bumblebeex3]

Truthfully I think that they included it in the most minimal way possible. I didn't even read the text message the first time I played the game because I hardly read texts, books, etc., in the games. I only knew of all this from reading threads on here.

That being said, I think that it was handled with tact as are all the other relationships we have seen in past games. To me there is no difference between Dagny's romantic backstory (for lack of a better phrase) and say, Izzy's with her boyfriend from WAC. It's all just interesting story fluff but I wouldn't mind seeing more of it in the future.

[asiagoAttorney]

To tell you the truth I don't think it should be included. I get that it is out there but to me it doesn't say family friendly. If I were a mother and my kid was playing a game that I thought was safe and then suddenly they ask me what a Lesbian is my mind would instantly go "I don't want my kid finding out about this through a computer game."
I know that it is something that is happening and shouldn't be ignored, but also being a Christian I cringe inwardly anytime any kind of entertainment includes it. I just don't think that it belongs there, especially in a game series that wants to be family friendly

But saying its not "family friendly" is a slap in the face all the gay couples out there who have made a family by adopting children in need. If you want to raise your kids without exposing them to such a common phenomenon, that is your freedom, but HeR is not hurting all families by including representing that demographic. <3

[CharleenaPurcel]

Ok, maybe I should rephrase that to kid friendly. I understand that the word family is now a point of discussion among people as well. All I'm saying is that it's an issue that I would rather not have to deal with in my entertainment. When I play the games I want to feel that I can be comfortable and not have to worry about encountering things that would make anyone uncomfortable. That being said I have been uncomfortable with any romance in the games anyway, that's just my preference.
I stink at explaining what I mean so I hope no one pick this apart and gets the general idea of what I mean

[crazyforanimals]

I'm also glad someone made this post! I too, am a Christian, and I'm very impressed with everything you said, and totally agree with what you are saying! I hope that HeR knew what they were getting into when they put that in the game.

[lillycheese]

As long as this discussion can remain civil, I'm all for it! I think that it's an important one to have concerning future games since there seems to be quite a controversy on here. My comments are not directed at anyone, but rather they are a whole spiel that I feel the need to get out. Most of the conversation I have seen on here has not been offensive to me necessarily, and I'm not calling anyone out on anything.

I would like to start out by saying that I'm sure that HeR has done plenty of research on their demographics. For all the changes that they have been instilling in the last year or so (new CEO, voice actor, writer, employee cuts, etc...), I'm sure that they would have done research and made a plan prior to the change. Additionally, I think their headquarters location near Seattle, which is known as a pretty progressive city, and the fact that they are situated in a state where gay marriage is recognized, probably plays a factor. Support for gay marriage is at 60% for the whole US, so it's safe to say that HeR feels that it is acceptable to include a character who had a life partner. (Let's also not forget that life partner does not necessarily mean that the character is LGBT; I personally know heterosexual couples who are simply against marriage and would prefer to have a life partner instead. Just another one of the many "alternative" relationships that could possibly be represented at some point.) Also note that they did not say that she was married--HeR did not effectively take a stance on LGBT marriage or LGBT rights in general with this.

As these social issues take up more of the spotlight now than they did when SCK first came out and HeR was founded, I absolutely think it makes sense for Nancy to encounter LGBT people in her world. HeR has always handled relationships with prudence, and I feel that they would treat any LGBT relationship with the same tact that they do with heterosexual relationships. There are many different types of families and relationships in the world, and to a lot of people, LGBT is completely normal. In fact, I personally see it as more family friendly than excluding a demographic of people who have two moms or two dads.

In conclusion, I am wholeheartedly for the inclusion, and I think it makes sense, especially with the example of how they presented it in this game.

[KCsleuth]

I think HER made a mistake including a gay character in their game. They have now delved into political correctness. It goes without saying we should love one another and accept them, but to place a character with a lifestyle in a Nancy Drew game to be politically correct...this isn't good. What will they include next?

Maybe I'm old school, but I'm okay with that. It's how I feel.

[WWNDD12]

Support for gay marriage is at 60% for the whole US, so it's safe to say that HeR feels that it is acceptable to include a character who had a life partner. (Let's also not forget that life partner does not necessarily mean that the character is LGBT; I personally know heterosexual couples who are simply against marriage and would prefer to have a life partner instead. Just another one of the many "alternative" relationships that could possibly be represented at some point.) Also note that they did not say that she was married--HeR did not effectively take a stance on LGBT marriage or LGBT rights in general with this.

I personally would prefer them to not have "partners" because it is against my beliefs. But I respect your opinion.
Also, HeR did say she was married. Dagny said "I was married and then I wasn't." Just FYI. :D

Good thread Will! I think this is a great place people can make short or long comments without having to worry about being attacked.

I, personally am against it. I get that HeR is trying to add diversity but I would just rather it to not be touched on. My heart sunk when I first heard about it and I think it would be even harder on me (and other christians) if they had a LGBT couple.

[asiagoAttorney]

I think HER made a mistake including a gay character in their game. They have now delved into political correctness. It goes without saying we should love one another and accept them, but to place a character with a lifestyle in a Nancy Drew game to be politically correct...this isn't good. What will they include next?

Maybe I'm old school, but I'm okay with that. It's how I feel.

I'd disagree with your point, specifically that "many" regard homosexuality as wrong. There's no questioning that the number of people who do is shrinking every day, and including the character probably didn't upset as many people as you might have estimated without knowing.
In addition, Nancy may be moral and innocent, but we've seen throughout the books and games that she is also caring and forgiving, and tends not to act with racial or any other prejudice. We also don't know her religious beliefs. Therefore, there's no reason to believe Nancy may have judged Dagny for her sexuality.
Just a thought.

[lillycheese]

Also, HeR did say she was married. Dagny said "I was married and then I wasn't." Just FYI. :D

You are right! I did forget about that. Honestly, I pretty much glossed over all of her relationship back story because it didn't matter much to me (really none of them do besides Nancy and Ned, and maybe Bess and George). That kind of goes along with my point though that it is nationally becoming more and more widely accepted, and only natural that it would be represented in Nancy's world, especially in a country such as Iceland where they have an openly gay leader and are very progressive with LGBT rights.

[whitewolf93]

Friendliness and Inclusion

I'm quite glad that someone made this post; it's good to have a forum to discuss this issue, since it definitely pertains to the future of HeR's games. I agree that it's incredibly important to keep this discussion civil and to remember to be tolerant of everyone's beliefs, regardless of whether or not they coencide with your own. That means not only refraining from attacking people for their opinions, but also being willing to actually read what people have to say and refraining from judgment. I know that trying not to judge is a concept endorsed wholeheartedly by the christian religion, and members of the LGBT community have had enough experience with prejudice and bigotry to know that judgment can be painful to receive, so hopefully we can all keep this conversation civil, kind, and productive.

Personally, I was thrilled to learn that Dagny has a female life partner. Growing up, I always looked for representation of people like me in the games, and the series always fell short in that regard. Although HeR has avoided including multiple subjects within the games (alcohol use, visual scenes of violence, the concept of religious views), the subject of romantic relationships has been addressed by almost every game, and always within the context of heterosexuality. If there was no mention of romantic relationships, or even attraction, at all within the games, this wouldn't matter, but when the content of the games constantly portrays characters as exclusively heterosexual, it starts to feel as though they're making a statement. In my opinion, the inclusion of an LGBT character returned the company's stance to one of more neutrality. I realize that not everyone agrees with me here, but I think that including an LGBT relationship within the game was not taking a stance -- it was simply representing a demographic that has gained increasing visibility within the past decade.

I don't think that HeR will have Nancy say something along the lines of "It's great that you're LGBT!" in a future game because honestly, that just seems awkward. As a member of the community, I would find a statement like this uncomfortable and unwarranted -- LGBT people are not asking for verbal validation or praise, they are simply asking for the right to exist without persecution or prejudice.

I would love to see more content like this in future games. I agree that it would be best if the games continued to take a neutral stance and recognize the existance of the LGBT community without addressing it in an awkward or forced way, either positively or negatively.

Thank you for your post, I agree with many points that you made. I myself cannot judge on this issue, as I have not played Sea of Darkness. However, I will say that I am saddened to hear people say that the presentation of this inclusion is not "kid-friendly" or is a mature theme that should not have been a part of this game. From what I gather the source of this debate is a single text message (not even character dialogue) that could easily be missed for one who is not meticulous to the game's details. To say that a single text message has somehow tarnished the character or "friendliness" of this game towards all ages or those of various backgrounds is perplexing at best.

Even in the case that one is a Christian (even though there are many Christians who are not against homosexual relationships) or of a belief/background/viewpoint that disagrees with homosexual relationships; what is it about the inclusion of a single text message that would cause one to need to explain the dynamic dimensions of sexuality to their child or to someone who asked what a lesbian is? Quite frankly, it is a relationship between two women. Whether or not that relationship is wholesome or not varies between the individuals, and the same could be said of heterosexual couples. To be honest the heterosexual relationships between some characters in the Nancy Drew series (ie. Deirdre from Alibi in Ashes) have struck me as not being the most "family-friendly" examples for young individuals.

From another perspective I'm surprised to see as much backlash regarding this particular inclusion versus say the "non-family-friendly" topics of witchcraft (Abby from Message in a Haunted Mansion), countless murderous culprits/creatures, or the topics of psychological disturbance (Minette from Danger by Design) that have been prevalent throughout the entire Nancy Drew series. At what point is something "safe" or "friendly" for the entire family? This line is very difficult to draw. Regardless I think a text message is a far cry from challenging the family friendly standard set by the Nancy Drew games.

This topic, like any other topic of diversity or beliefs, should not be excluded from the game on the basis that it does not coincide with your own beliefs. From what I understand HER Interactive has not promoted LGBT individuals as being justified in their beliefs any more than they have promoted the activities of believing in the supernatural or other controversial topics that can naturally lead to complex and debatable discussions in "adult" life. LGBT lives are some of the threads that makes up the colorful tapestry of life, whether or not I agree with it is irrelevant. The text message is not a theme or instance that has communicated ill-intent or something malevolent towards any demographic or individual that I am aware of, so I struggle to see why it should be offensive towards any player of the Nancy Drew games (child or adult). The key here, that I believe some are perhaps missing, is that the inclusion of this text means different things for different people. For some it is a validation of their own lives and beliefs; for others it is a relationship between humans that is not in accordance with what they themselves believe as appropriate. However just like any story, character, or interaction with fellow human beings I encourage the active pursuit of understanding each other and respect that each deserves. As far as I can tell this text message has not encouraged anything adverse to the prior standard. It is quite neutral in its own right.

One thing I disagree with in the poster's comment that I quoted is that I do not necessarily "want" to see more of this in future Nancy Drew games. With "this" I mean the necessary visibility of LGBT individuals. If they appear that's fine. If they don't always appear that's fine too. I want games that represent the diversity of our world. If a game features a Christian I don't take offense to their beliefs as challenging my own. If a game features a Muslim or Atheist same story. This factor is no different when it comes to homosexuality, heterosexuality, racial, or ethnic topics. These viewpoints and lives are dynamic insights into our own world. I want HER to create rich and dynamic games, hence I want characters who have dynamic rather than monolithic backgrounds as well. Hopefully the distinction I am trying to make in this post is clear.

Regardless, I hope this community can continue to enjoy the diversity of the Nancy Drew games; rather than feel that the inclusion of different beliefs is an offense aimed personally at them.

[lillycheese]

Well said, whitewolf93! I think your post expanded on and eloquently explained a lot of the thoughts I have on this topic.