Dear HeR Interactive: When we want 'the old games back', here is what we mean.

[Royal Payne]

Dear HeR Interactive,

First of all, I'd like to say that I still love the ND games. I don't want to come across as always negative and critical. I think they are still the best mystery games out there for the younger age group. There are a few things that we, the fans who have been playing for years (and possibly newer fans who have played them all), miss though, and possibly a few things that we wished would be left out of the games. I've seen many members say that we aren't specific when we say that we want some of the things from the older games back. I've created this thread to do just that. This is also a thread to say what you'd rather not see in the games anymore as well. But, I'd like to include this little reminder from veja:

I think what JN is trying say is that you can post things you don't want to see and it can be a discussion thread as long as you don't call it a petition. You are not allowed to post disagreeing thoughts on a petition because it is seen as an "agree with me" thread that the author wants to send to HeR showing support for the author's ideas. When negative posts are allowed on a petition it becomes a discussion and then the author's point is often lost. An author of a petition is supposed to clearly state that it is a petition. Sometimes those that start petitions ask for discussion and that gets messy. You are also not allowed to start a petition that is clearly and solely for the purpose of trashing someone else's ideas. State what you think politely. State if you want to discuss it or want to send it in as a petition and then see where it goes.

So when you post here, you're agreeing to be polite and respectful of everyone's opinion. And while we're on the topic: This is not a petition; this is for discussion. So please feel free to discuss so the people at HeR can read this and find out specifically what we want back from the old games and don't want from the new. :D

Also, check out this thread: Is quality lacking because the writers aren't being lazy enough? - It's very intriguing, and has a lot of great points. :D

I'll get this started with a few topics that the older games had that the newer ones don't, or the new ones have that I wished they didn't that I’ve seen mentioned that I agree with, and I'll add to it as we discuss so anyone can jump in and know what all we're talking about:

Blackouts
1: Blackouts when characters were leaving were somewhat avoided in the older games because I don't think ever had to lie to get suspects to leave like in TMB or SPY. But in STFD, the screen does fade from the close up of Mattie to the empty room when Mattie leaves, so I suppose I didn't really have a right to complain about that.

2: Blackouts when traveling was a little different too. In DOG, when using the boat, we were shown scenery as the boat moved, so it didn't feel like we just randomly appeared. I think if that train scene was shown every time we used the train, it wouldn't have felt so weird.

3: Blackouts when Nancy travels on foot was also different. In DDI, when Nancy went a long distance, it would fade out, fade back in with Nancy moving, and fade back out to show movement. Sometimes it would do this several times.
Now, like in SPY, when Nancy used the elevator, we didn't get to see the hotel lobby; we were just there.


Calling people for help
Now we can get hints and spoilers from the task list. I play Master just to avoid it; what happened to getting hints from Nancy's friends? That may not be quite as realistic, but it made for interesting and sometimes funny conversations.
On another note: It also means that fewer people come to HeR boards for help. (And we wonder why the boards have been so slow lately... ) But that's a topic for another board, so I'll stop there.


Conversations:
In the old games, we had choices when we spoke to the characters. We could say ‘Yes’, ‘No’, and sometime ‘Maybe’. We could agree, disagree, or say that we aren’t sure. Now Nancy takes the conversation into her own hands; for the first time I realized that the conversation options in this game were so limited. (I said this on another thread, but I felt that I should bring it up here too.) Now Nancy answers it for us, and for me, I feel like I'm watching Nancy, not controlling her. I remember a game where what you said mattered a great deal, to the point of a second chance, or having people hang up on you. I'm not Nancy anymore, and that's a big issue to me.

Educational Component

I have found that the games seem to be less educational. We are still learning but once again it feels limited. Take TRT for instance. There were several books we could read, and a few pages worth, and we learned about the French Revolution and Reign of Terror. Nowadays, we get one or two books, usually only two pages long. And we don't really utilize that knowledge nearly as much as was done a decade ago. And if we look at SPY (and a lot of people have pointed this out) so much more could have been incorporated that had to do with Scottish history. But, ultimately, we had a briefing on three things. I had expected a much more extensive history to have been provided for us.

Music improvements (Thanks KokoKringle999 and Rianna):

To improve it my suggestion would be go back to long tracks to vary the music. For example in the soundtrack to SPY, while the music is great and fits the mood and theme of the game, it's comprised of lots of little tracks lasting not usually longer than a minute, this means we are constantly hearing the same themes over and over again making the music sound more fragmented. In comparison the music of the other games was more story telling, it took you on a journey, like the mystery did.

I've noticed that as well. Music is a huge part of my life, which is likely why music is one of the aspects I look forward to most and enjoy talking about the most. I'd really like to see longer pieces as well. It makes a big difference to the overall experience of the game. Though I love listening to some of the tracks frequently when playing games, it's less enjoyable when it's a short track that you only get briefly, or a short track that you hear too often because it cycles through so quickly.

Similarly, they used to make the music more location-dependent. What I mean is that Nancy would enter a space and the music would be unique to that area of the game. Now it's not like that so much. We'll hear more variety in lots of spaces. I miss having the distinct music for at least one (or two, really) places or locations in each game.

Also, check out this thread: Improving the soundtracks


Mystery Games must have mystery!
The ND games HAVE to revolve around the mystery! In SSH, there were lots of puzzles about the Maya the same as MED had puzzles surrounding the game show; but in SSH, the mystery was never forgotten. By halfway through MED, I had to remind myself what the mystery was, which should never happen. It felt like the game show prevailed over George's accident and it bugs me. Since when is Nancy more concerned with winning than she is about her best friend? George should be more important than some game show. (The same way I felt with Nancy solving puzzles in RAN and complying with the kidnappers demands instead of searching for Bess like mad.) Though the puzzles were enjoyable in MED, it was easy to forget what the mystery was. One thing that is important in a mystery game is the mystery!


Nancy's attitude:
I alluded to this on the SPY discussion board, but I'll go a little more in depth here without getting spoilerish.
Lately, it seems like she's sassy when she shouldn't be and too passive when she should be blunt. I think that the reason I didn't have a problem with it in FIN was because it involved a kidnapping of someone she was close to. In RAN, someone even closer to her than Maya was kidnapped, and Nancy felt so emotionless. I didn't have a problem with Nancy's being overly blunt at times in SPY because I get that her emotions were getting the best of her.
Here's another example: Why does Nancy try to comfort Emily in CLK after the loss of her mother, but is so tactless with the Shimizu’s in SAW?
Also, check out this thread: More heart. Little changes, BIG difference. It is spot-on about Nancy lately, explaining the problem much better than I have here.
Edit 11/13/2014: That being said -- Lani Minella ISN'T the problem. She is simply following the script. It may be possible that HeR misinterpreted this message, because HeR has chosen to use another voice actress for Nancy in ND33. Not only do we want the old games back, we don't want Lani to leave! This had nothing to do with Lani! We love her version of Nancy. Please keep her. If someone reading this would like to support the cause, here is a link to the petition: Petition to Keep Lani Minella as Nancy's Voice.

Snooping//Sleuthing
I think a big part of snooping and sleuthing is what all we can do in a location, not just looking through people's things. We also didn't get to click on much; in the older games, we could click to get closer looks of things that didn't matter. In STFD for instance, we can look at so much in the prop room. 14 years later, I'm still finding new stuff. And when I say we want more places to look and more to look at, I don't mean like the empty corners in TOT. When we go into a room and we're only allowed to look at a couple of things, it makes the place feel small, even though it may seem large.


Third Person // Two Dimensional Maps
There hasn't been any in the last few games that I recall, but here, we would like to emphasize that we don't care for it and would like for it to stay gone. whitewolf93 explains it flawlessly here.

[Ndfan1234]

Yes, yes yes! Oh Penelope, wonderful thread!!! I agree totally! (I'm going to email this link to HeR to make sure they see our ideas!

Dear HeR Interactive,

First of all, I'd like to say that I still love the ND games. I don't want to come across as always negative and critical. I think they are still the best mystery games out there for the younger age group. There are a few things that we, the fans who have been playing for years (and possibly newer fans who have played them all), miss though, and possibly a few things that we wished would be left out of the games. I've seen many members say that we aren't specific when we say that we want some of the things from the older games back. I've created this thread to do just that. This is also a thread to say what you'd rather not see in the games anymore as well. But, I'd like to include this little reminder from veja:

So when you post here, you're agreeing to be polite and respectful of everyone's opinion. And while we're on the topic: This is not a petition; this is for discussion. So please feel free to discuss so the people at HeR can read this and find out specifically what we want back from the old games and don't want from the new. :D

I'll get this started with a few topics that the older games had that the newer ones don't, or the new ones have that I wished they didn't that I’ve seen mentioned that I agree with, and I'll add to it as we discuss so anyone can jump in and know what all we're talking about:

Blackouts
1: Blackouts when characters were leaving were somewhat avoided in the older games because I don't think ever had to lie to get suspects to leave like in TMB or SPY. But in STFD, the screen does fade from the close up of Mattie to the empty room when Mattie leaves, so I suppose I didn't really have a right to complain about that. I've noticed this. It's not as big of a deal to me with character blackouts, but why does Nancy lie to get them to leave. She used to snoop at night or in a secret passage! Where are those passages? (Although GTH, did have a little of that...)

2: Blackouts when traveling was a little different too. In DOG, when using the boat, we were shown scenery as the boat moved, so it didn't feel like we just randomly appeared. I think if that train scene was shown every time we used the train, it wouldn't have felt so weird. es, also like in SHA we could also see the Wild West as we rode horseback!

3: Blackouts when Nancy travels on foot was also different. In DDI, when Nancy went a long distance, it would fade out, fade back in with Nancy moving, and fade back out to show movement. Sometimes it would do this several times.
Now, like in SPY, when Nancy used the elevator, we didn't get to see the hotel lobby; we were just there. Yes, like why can't we see the path to Thornton Hall or the path to the graveyard? Or why can't we see the hotel lobby or the elevator moving or the path to the train station? DED was good with the elevator, I really didn't mind it. Now SPY, we're there immediately. I didn't mind not having the train window though, that would have been annoying plus it was a great intro into the flashbacks.


Calling people for help
Now we can get hints and spoilers from the task list. I play Master just to avoid it; what happened to getting hints from Nancy's friends? That may not be quite as realistic, but it made for interesting and sometimes funny conversations.
On another note: It also means that fewer people come to HeR boards for help. (And we wonder why the boards have been so slow lately... ) But that's a topic for another board, so I'll stop there. Yeah, in SPY, I played Master sleuth first for the first time, and it was great because it lasted longer without the hints. But I found myself calling Ned often, wishing for a friendly nudge instead of the blatant hints we get in the tasklist. No help, however. I was excited though that my wish of phone friends being necessary was answered! We needed both Ned and Carson to finish, which was great!


Conversations:
In the old games, we had choices when we spoke to the characters. We could say ‘Yes’, ‘No’, and sometime ‘Maybe’. We could agree, disagree, or say that we aren’t sure. Now Nancy takes the conversation into her own hands; for the first time I realized that the conversation options in this game were so limited. (I said this on another thread, but I felt that I should bring it up here too.) Now Nancy answers it for us, and for me, I feel like I'm watching Nancy, not controlling her. I remember a game where what you said mattered a great deal, to the point of a second chance, or having people hang up on you. I'm not Nancy anymore, and that's a big issue to me. I've noticed that! There were only a few responses where you could choose the next thing in GTH, and I don't think barely any at all in SPY! In the early games, it was like every conversation! And now, we have the convo skipper. HER!!! of all things I want changed, it's this. It's nice when you replay it, but then it goes so fast! We don't need to skip conversation. "Does no one have time in this fast paced modern world anymore?" Lukas Mittlemeir, CAP. And some of the convos, I'm like wait? Didn't Nancy just ask that a second ago? Please HeR, get rid of the convo skipper, and make less, but more interesting dialogue for all characters. Another last thing. Some characters have a lot to say, while others we don;t get to talk to nearly enough. For example Ewan was such a blabbermouth. But we didn't know much about Bridget.


Nancy's attitude:
I alluded to this on the SPY discussion board, but I'll go a little more in depth here without getting spoilerish.
Lately, it seems like she's sassy when she shouldn't be and too passive when she should be blunt. I think that the reason I didn't have a problem with it in FIN was because it involved a kidnapping of someone she was close to. In RAN, someone even closer to her than Maya was kidnapped, and Nancy felt so emotionless. I didn't have a problem with Nancy's being overly blunt at times in SPY because I get that her emotions were getting the best of her.
Here's another example: Why does Nancy try to comfort Emily in CLK after the loss of her mother, but is so tactless with the Shimizu’s in SAW?
I actually had a bigger problem with other characters. What was up with Moira's "old lady" speech? I can't believe she said something about racist? Where in the world did that come from? I don't have as much of a problem with this, but it's true Nancy was insensitive in SAW, while in CAR and CLK, she was so sweet and caring. And about the racist thing, Penelope? It was a joke from Moira. Nancy showed surprise at her being a DJ some nights, so she pretended to be a stereotypical old lady. None of that stuff actually applied to her really!


Snooping//Sleuthing
I think a big part of snooping and sleuthing is what all we can do in a location, not just looking through people's things. We also didn't get to click on much; in the older games, we could click to get closer looks of things that didn't matter. In STFD for instance, we can look at so much in the prop room. 14 years later, I'm still finding new stuff. And when I say we want more places to look and more to look at, I don't mean like the empty corners in TOT. When we go into a room and we're only allowed to look at a couple of things, it makes the place feel small, even though it may seem large.Again, I don't care as much about this one, but I do think we need more snooping. And not in a lying to characters face again and again way. We need a new "prop room" so to speak. Like Penelope, I'm always finding a new secret in the prop room!

Really great thread Penelope! Please HeR. Listen to your fans. We will love your games no matter what, but here's some specific ideas in which to change.

[sassyvicki1231]

Great Thread! I Totally Agree With You I Honestly Miss Alot Of Things That Were In The older ND Games Than There Are In The Newer ones, Don't Get Me Wrong I Still Love The Newer one's But The Main Reason I Want 'The old Games Back' Is The Atmosphere Of The Older Games, Not Sure If Anyone Will Understand Me When I Say That. But Anyways Great Thread!

[Royal Payne]

Yes, yes yes! Oh Penelope, wonderful thread!!! I agree totally! (I'm going to email this link to HeR to make sure they see our ideas!
Thanks! :D I hope this will help HeR understand what we're saying. :D

I've noticed this. It's not as big of a deal to me with character blackouts, but why does Nancy lie to get them to leave. She used to snoop at night or in a secret passage! Where are those passages? (Although GTH, did have a little of that...)
Since GTH had a little of that, I hope this means that maybe HeR will bring that back. :D

Yes, also like in SHA we could also see the Wild West as we rode horseback!
Oh, that's right!

Yes, like why can't we see the path to Thornton Hall or the path to the graveyard? Or why can't we see the hotel lobby or the elevator moving or the path to the train station? DED was good with the elevator, I really didn't mind it. Now SPY, we're there immediately. I didn't mind not having the train window though, that would have been annoying plus it was a great intro into the flashbacks.
Yes, I love the DED elevator. It reminded me of the TRT elevator; in more ways than one actually...

Yeah, in SPY, I played Master sleuth first for the first time, and it was great because it lasted longer without the hints. But I found myself calling Ned often, wishing for a friendly nudge instead of the blatant hints we get in the tasklist. No help, however. I was excited though that my wish of phone friends being necessary was answered! We needed both Ned and Carson to finish, which was great!
I liked that the phone characters were necessary too! I think Deirdre in DED and Allison in GTH were like that too.

I've noticed that! There were only a few responses where you could choose the next thing in GTH, and I don't think barely any at all in SPY! In the early games, it was like every conversation! And now, we have the convo skipper. HER!!! of all things I want changed, it's this. It's nice when you replay it, but then it goes so fast! We don't need to skip conversation. "Does no one have time in this fast paced modern world anymore?" Lukas Mittlemeir, CAP. And some of the convos, I'm like wait? Didn't Nancy just ask that a second ago? Please HeR, get rid of the convo skipper, and make less, but more interesting dialogue for all characters. Another last thing. Some characters have a lot to say, while others we don;t get to talk to nearly enough. For example Ewan was such a blabbermouth. But we didn't know much about Bridget.
Agreed! I don't mind having a lot of dialogue, as long as we, as Nancy, get to choose where it goes. Having backstory about the characters is also great. We found out so much about Dexter in TRT and Henry in CRY, it was so amazing.

I don't have as much of a problem with this, but it's true Nancy was insensitive in SAW, while in CAR and CLK, she was so sweet and caring. And about the racist thing, Penelope? It was a joke from Moira. Nancy showed surprise at her being a DJ some nights, so she pretended to be a stereotypical old lady. None of that stuff actually applied to her really!
That was ... a joke? Oh... this makes the second time I didn't get a joke in this game. (I didn't understand the humor in Kate and Moira's journal either.) Maybe I should replay and listen to that part again. After I heard that word, I just sort of went into shock and missed the remainder of the conversation, lol.

Again, I don't care as much about this one, but I do think we need more snooping. And not in a lying to characters face again and again way. We need a new "prop room" so to speak. Like Penelope, I'm always finding a new secret in the prop room!
That room has to be one of the best rooms that HeR created. Ever.
Really great thread Penelope! Please HeR. Listen to your fans. We will love your games no matter what, but here's some specific ideas in which to change.

Thanks again; I hope we're successful!

Great Thread! I Totally Agree With You I Honestly Miss Alot Of Things That Were In The older ND Games Than There Are In The Newer ones, Don't Get Me Wrong I Still Love The Newer one's But The Main Reason I Want 'The old Games Back' Is The Atmosphere Of The Older Games, Not Sure If Anyone Will Understand Me When I Say That. But Anyways Great Thread!

When you say 'atmosphere', do you mean the locations, the characters, the music that makes you feel like Nancy could die at any moment or is it something else specific? Or maybe a combo of all of that? I think I understand what you mean, but it's hard to put it into words!

[secretariat]

Great thread. I agree, I miss the older games. I do like the conversation skip button (I've wanted that for awhile) but that is because I am a fast reader and can get through the dialogue on the screen in about half the time it takes for the characters to say it. I do miss how we used to be able to see the different spots as we passed by, like in the hallways and paths. It is a little sad that we can't see as much of places as we used to. Now, if you go down a stairs, if you take one step your at the bottom. You start down a path and after three steps you're already at the end. I miss being able to look at the scenery or the pictures that were always around. I also agree that Nancy's attitude is weird. (In fact, it downright bothers me) She is so cold, like if someone talks about something sad that happened, she just brushes past it and goes on with her interrogation. I liked it when she would take the time to comfort the person and support them. It made her seem, well, like a real person. I also miss being able to pick what I want to say. I liked trying out all of the different options and getting to see what the people would do. That was fun! The snooping also bothers me. I don't like lying to people to get them to leave. I liked it when we would have to get up in the middle of the night and go snooping around, it made the game more suspenseful. (I always got really nervous that I was going to get caught haha) Sorry for going on like this, once I get going on something, I have a hard time stopping. Thanks for putting up this thread. Please, HeR, listen to these opinions. We miss the old game qualities. Even if it doesn't change, I'll always be a fan. I love all the games, but if you make some changes, it will be more fun for me and others to play them. Thanks.

~Mia & Jack (aka the undead monkey)

[keyblade bearer]

I agree with you, especially in the attitude aspect. Even my brother has noticed Nancy's new found sassiness. There's nothing wrong with sass, but I think Nancy has been treading very closely to the boarder line rude side, and it's kind of sad. But that's all I'll say here.

*Side Note*
You mentioned why Nancy acted differently in CLK and SAW. I think she was more comforting towards Emily because her mother had just recently died whereas Miwako and Yumi's mother had been dead for awhile. Not that she's off the hook for being rude, I just think that might explain part of it because maybe she assumes Miwako's wounds have had more time ot heal means it's ok to probe, or maybe that Miwako will be more open about it.

Phone friends:
YES! I've really missed getting help from Bess, George, Ned, Frank, and Joe. While the in-game hints are helpful sometimes, at the same time, I don't feel the need to call friends anymore. Also I've found with the hint thing, I'm less likely to try as hard as I can to figure out a puzzle because there's hints and solutions right there. And it is kind of counter-productive to the message boards...

Blackouts:
What's up with that? I don't always appreciate them, especially when we're going up and down stairs like in HAU. Another thing I'd like to add here is blatantly sectioning off areas to limit exploring. Like in SPY, there were cleaning supplies and whatnot so you could only make a path from the room to the elevator. Or in HAU how they cut off the stairs to go upstairs and they part by the library. I understand in SPY that they weren't going to animate all the levels of the hotel; that's just a tad unrealistic and would take up data, probably making the game run slower, which is actually why they try to make the playing area so compact so that it's easier to animate, doesn't take so long to produce, and so it won't take up so much space on the computer's hard drive, but still.

Rooms:
I agree! I miss finding random books that don't have anything to do with the mystery, but were still fun to read. Or even just looking at everything, like you mentioned in STFD.

~Aly

[snowwolf]

I agree with keyblade bearer. ND has gotten a little too sassy with her dad, even and that sends a bad message to the younger generation. Remember, HeR Nancy has always stood for the right side of good. She has always been a good example for young girls to follow, that;s what makes her Nancy Drew.

She was even getting a little off with her friends and even some of the character of the game. Yes, we will always buy her games, but this really needs to change and bring back the old Nancy, before she gets too big for her breaches.

[Rianna]

I am so excited for this thread! Thanks for posting this, Royal Payne!

Dear HeR Interactive,

First of all, I'd like to say that I still love the ND games. I don't want to come across as always negative and critical. I think they are still the best mystery games out there for the younger age group.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm still a fan of this company and I love what they're continuing to make; however, I miss the quality of the older games. I find that the older games were more enjoyable on first plays than the new ones are, and that they continue to be more enjoyable for replays. I hope that the company can recapture the spark that those first dozen games had and bring that forward in the upcoming products.

Blackouts
1: Blackouts when characters were leaving were somewhat avoided in the older games because I don't think ever had to lie to get suspects to leave like in TMB or SPY. But in STFD, the screen does fade from the close up of Mattie to the empty room when Mattie leaves, so I suppose I didn't really have a right to complain about that.

It wasn't even when we needed to "force" a character to leave. There were natural moments when characters would leave a scene (such as scary Ethel in CUR) where the character was either animated to walk away or suddenly vanished. Admittedly, I don't care for the sudden disappearance thing (it's so weird); but, I prefer that to the fade-out, because it didn't interrupt the scene.

2: Blackouts when traveling was a little different too. In DOG, when using the boat, we were shown scenery as the boat moved, so it didn't feel like we just randomly appeared. I think if that train scene was shown every time we used the train, it wouldn't have felt so weird.

I agree. I don't like the sudden "jumping" to places (which I'll expand on in the next point).

3: Blackouts when Nancy travels on foot was also different. In DDI, when Nancy went a long distance, it would fade out, fade back in with Nancy moving, and fade back out to show movement. Sometimes it would do this several times.
Now, like in SPY, when Nancy used the elevator, we didn't get to see the hotel lobby; we were just there.

I am not bothered by a fade-out for long-distance travel. I'd get annoyed if we were shown a 5 minute-long travel scene. It's the instantaneous travel that bugs me though (on top of blackouts for leaving characters). Or, as was the case in GTH, jumping several meters forward when walking a distance that wasn't particularly long (from the front gate to the manor). If the distance is short, it would be nice to have a more in-time, realistic way of moving. If the distance is long, then showing the beginning of movement followed by a fade-out, and reopening with the end of traveling is appropriate in my book (like the example above from DDI).

Calling people for help
Now we can get hints and spoilers from the task list. I play Master just to avoid it; what happened to getting hints from Nancy's friends? That may not be quite as realistic, but it made for interesting and sometimes funny conversations.
On another note: It also means that fewer people come to HeR boards for help. (And we wonder why the boards have been so slow lately... ) But that's a topic for another board, so I'll stop there.

I think you were the one to mention elsewhere (another thread) about having riddles as clues from phone friends. THAT is what I miss. I traditionally don't call the phone contacts. I like to figure things out all on my own. But if I need a little nudge, I'd rather get it in that format. I don't want to be told outright what to do. It's a puzzle we're trying to solve, after all, so it seems more appropriate to have another little mental puzzle to push us toward solving the problem (or figuring out what to do next, etc.).

On a related note (and one of the later posts on this thread reminded me of this): I dislike the necessity to call people. I prefer when Nancy has to use the resources around her to figure out the mystery. Now and then I guess I can understand her needing to go to an outside source, but even then I'd rather it wasn't one of her regular phone contacts. Take FIN for example. Nancy calls the Library of Congress. Now THAT is doing your research. I'd like more phone calling of that nature, if we have to call at all for assistance.

Conversations:
In the old games, we had choices when we spoke to the characters. We could say ‘Yes’, ‘No’, and sometime ‘Maybe’. We could agree, disagree, or say that we aren’t sure. Now Nancy takes the conversation into her own hands; for the first time I realized that the conversation options in this game were so limited. (I said this on another thread, but I felt that I should bring it up here too.) Now Nancy answers it for us, and for me, I feel like I'm watching Nancy, not controlling her. I remember a game where what you said mattered a great deal, to the point of a second chance, or having people hang up on you. I'm not Nancy anymore, and that's a big issue to me.

I don't even know how to start how much I agree with you and miss that! I too feel as though I've lost my position as a player because Nancy is making all of the calls. We don't really get to be our own Nancy. We're the silent bystander when she's interrogating (or even when she's engaged in a simple conversation). And we shouldn't be a bystander--we're supposed to be an active participant. It's our mystery, too.

Nancy's attitude:
I alluded to this on the SPY discussion board, but I'll go a little more in depth here without getting spoilerish.
Lately, it seems like she's sassy when she shouldn't be and too passive when she should be blunt. I think that the reason I didn't have a problem with it in FIN was because it involved a kidnapping of someone she was close to. In RAN, someone even closer to her than Maya was kidnapped, and Nancy felt so emotionless. I didn't have a problem with Nancy's being overly blunt at times in SPY because I get that her emotions were getting the best of her.
Here's another example: Why does Nancy try to comfort Emily in CLK after the loss of her mother, but is so tactless with the Shimizu’s in SAW?
I actually had a bigger problem with other characters. What was up with Moira's "old lady" speech? I can't believe she said something about racist? Where in the world did that come from?

I just overall don't find her as kind or thoughtful as she used to be. Her demeanor seems to have changed. And I've said this elsewhere, but I find that she doesn't employ any tact. And how can you be a good detective if you aren't aware of tact and using it effectively?

Snooping//Sleuthing
I think a big part of snooping and sleuthing is what all we can do in a location, not just looking through people's things. We also didn't get to click on much; in the older games, we could click to get closer looks of things that didn't matter. In STFD for instance, we can look at so much in the prop room. 14 years later, I'm still finding new stuff. And when I say we want more places to look and more to look at, I don't mean like the empty corners in TOT. When we go into a room and we're only allowed to look at a couple of things, it makes the place feel small, even though it may seem large.

This happens to be the longest-running concern I've had, and it's not all that new. Over the years this has slowly been fading out, but it's been a concern for a long time. With DED I felt extra snooping started to come back, but it didn't transfer over to GTH and SPY. And I'd be willing to bet that THIS is the most wide-spread concern for all players. And here's why I say this:

Two days ago I was chatting with a friend of mine. She's not a member of the message board. I don't know that she even visits it. And we were rating the games out of five. And I'd asked her rating for one of the newer games. Here's what she had to say:

*Friend*
It's hard for me to replay the newer games. I don't know why.

*Me*
I have the same problem. I typically don't enjoy them as much as the first games.

They don't have the same spark.

*Friend*

I wish I could snoop more, in the newer ones. Where you find things or get to look at things that have nothing to do with the game outcome. It's just cool and adds more to the atmosphere.

As someone who's not a participant on the message board, she's picked up on the same thing most people are continuing to ask for. She's not following a trend, it's her own thought. And to add, she and I have very different taste when it comes to the games (you should have seen the varying ratings we gave, haha). The point is, regardless of which games you like or not, the common thing that I, at least, keep seeing by lots of different people, is a demand for more snooping.

I also agree that Nancy's attitude is weird. (In fact, it downright bothers me) She is so cold, like if someone talks about something sad that happened, she just brushes past it and goes on with her interrogation. I liked it when she would take the time to comfort the person and support them. It made her seem, well, like a real person.

This is such a huge point! Nancy's response and further prodding attitude doesn't adjust as the situation changes. She will ask a question, perhaps get a very snarky response, and very cheerily say goodbye, with the other character also saying, very upbeat, "See you soon!" But if we jump back to CUR, Nancy's emotions changed, and so did Jane's (she became more sullen, as did her "Goodbyes"). I don't know how best to say this. But essentially what I want in this area would be for emotions to flow continuously. If a particular discussion has happened that may alter attitudes between characters, then that ought to be maintained from there-on out.

The snooping also bothers me. I don't like lying to people to get them to leave. I liked it when we would have to get up in the middle of the night and go snooping around, it made the game more suspenseful. (I always got really nervous that I was going to get caught haha)

Ditto! There was so much more excitement that way! I do considerate it equally devious, because Nancy's finding some way to invade that person's privacy (without their knowledge at that), but I miss her way of snooping to access that information. In real life, you might not be able to trick a person and have them leave. So I'd like for her to have to wait and then act on the opportune moment to do that snooping.

I agree with you, especially in the attitude aspect. Even my brother has noticed Nancy's new found sassiness. There's nothing wrong with sass, but I think Nancy has been treading very closely to the boarder line rude side, and it's kind of sad. But that's all I'll say here.

Yep, that's the problem I'm seeing. I noted earlier that I don't find her as thoughtful, and I think you're very fair in saying that she's coming off as very rude now.

Rooms:
I agree! I miss finding random books that don't have anything to do with the mystery, but were still fun to read. Or even just looking at everything, like you mentioned in STFD.

That's a great example of the missing extra snooping. All the cool things that don't have any bearing on the mystery do affect the game-play. I'm going to repeat myself again from another thread. In real life (and yes, I'm very, very aware that these games are not realistic in many, many ways, but that's beside the point right now ) you don't happen to look at only the clues and the "right stuff." A detective would go through a whole bunch of extra stuff and wonder, "Hm, is this a clue? Is it a red herring? Should I stow this away just in case? Or should I ignore it?" I miss being a thorough snooper and being sure to have looked at everything.

[Ndfan1234]

This is such a huge point! Nancy's response and further prodding attitude doesn't adjust as the situation changes. She will ask a question, perhaps get a very snarky response, and very cheerily say goodbye, with the other character also saying, very upbeat, "See you soon!" But if we jump back to CUR, Nancy's emotions changed, and so did Jane's (she became more sullen, as did her "Goodbyes"). I don't know how best to say this. But essentially what I want in this area would be for emotions to flow continuously. If a particular discussion has happened that may alter attitudes between characters, then that ought to be maintained from there-on out.

I have to comment on what Rianna said. Here's an example. My mom was playing SPY, and we got to that one convo with Moira. She says how she used to hate Kae, and then she ends with, " I daresay I miss her almost as much as you must." My mom bursts out laughing because Nancy then cheerfully says "Goodbye!" No comforting, no addition to the conversation, nothing. Just a cheery goodbye. Which is ridiculous!

[Tabitha]

Another fantastic thread Penelope! I completely agree with everyone's points mentioned so far.

Calling people for help
Now we can get hints and spoilers from the task list. I play Master just to avoid it; what happened to getting hints from Nancy's friends? That may not be quite as realistic, but it made for interesting and sometimes funny conversations.
On another note: It also means that fewer people come to HeR boards for help. (And we wonder why the boards have been so slow lately... ) But that's a topic for another board, so I'll stop there.

Tell me about it. I miss calling all of Nancy's phone friends and having a great conversation! Even though, like you said, it wasn't that realistic to get hints from calling someone, I still think it made the overall game more realistic because, let's face it, if I were out solving a mystery I'd most likely spend my time chatting with friends or doing something completely irrelevant when I didn't have a lead.

Conversations:
In the old games, we had choices when we spoke to the characters. We could say ‘Yes’, ‘No’, and sometime ‘Maybe’. We could agree, disagree, or say that we aren’t sure. Now Nancy takes the conversation into her own hands; for the first time I realized that the conversation options in this game were so limited. (I said this on another thread, but I felt that I should bring it up here too.) Now Nancy answers it for us, and for me, I feel like I'm watching Nancy, not controlling her. I remember a game where what you said mattered a great deal, to the point of a second chance, or having people hang up on you. I'm not Nancy anymore, and that's a big issue to me.

I agree. In all of the recent games I haven't really liked talking to any of the characters. I don't think that it's only because I'm not able to really choose what Nancy says, but I also think that it has to do with the conversations themselves. In the newer games, I feel as though the conversation is lacking in a way. It's definitely not the same as the charming conversations we had in the old games, and I really, really miss that.

Nancy's attitude:
I alluded to this on the SPY discussion board, but I'll go a little more in depth here without getting spoilerish.
Lately, it seems like she's sassy when she shouldn't be and too passive when she should be blunt. I think that the reason I didn't have a problem with it in FIN was because it involved a kidnapping of someone she was close to. In RAN, someone even closer to her than Maya was kidnapped, and Nancy felt so emotionless. I didn't have a problem with Nancy's being overly blunt at times in SPY because I get that her emotions were getting the best of her.
Here's another example: Why does Nancy try to comfort Emily in CLK after the loss of her mother, but is so tactless with the Shimizu’s in SAW?
I actually had a bigger problem with other characters. What was up with Moira's "old lady" speech? I can't believe she said something about racist? Where in the world did that come from?

Uh, yeah! Nancy has definitely gotten a change of attitude. What happened to the charming detective from the older games that was a great reflection of the Nancy we fell in love with from the original books? I've even noticed Nancy's tone of voice has changed. Sometimes it's not even what shes says anymore, it's how she says them, and that's what really bothers me.

I agree with you, especially in the attitude aspect. Even my brother has noticed Nancy's new found sassiness. There's nothing wrong with sass, but I think Nancy has been treading very closely to the boarder line rude side, and it's kind of sad. But that's all I'll say here.

Yes! It's completely true when you mention she's getting on the rude side. Quite frankly, I believe that it's getting almost over the edge and it's not a good example for younger kids who are playing these great games, considering the newer games are so different from the older ones.

Snooping//Sleuthing
I think a big part of snooping and sleuthing is what all we can do in a location, not just looking through people's things. We also didn't get to click on much; in the older games, we could click to get closer looks of things that didn't matter. In STFD for instance, we can look at so much in the prop room. 14 years later, I'm still finding new stuff. And when I say we want more places to look and more to look at, I don't mean like the empty corners in TOT. When we go into a room and we're only allowed to look at a couple of things, it makes the place feel small, even though it may seem large.

Unfortunately this is so true. It's not really even the lack of snooping that bothers me anymore (probably because I've gotten so used to being without it ..), but it's the game locations themselves. I mean, we get informed of the future game locations and I tend to get really excited. But with the recent games (especially SPY), I think that the locations/settings are a let down. I mean, Scotland?! When I think of Scotland the first thing that comes to mind is outside .. And then in the actual game you're practically never outside. I thought perhaps we were going to get a setting somewhat like DDI or DOG where there are some great indoor settings that are rich in history, along with fantastic outdoor settings that tie in great with the mystery. But I was wrong. I also believe that the newer games don't have great character backgrounds or setting history/culture like the older games did, but that's another topic.

*Friend*
It's hard for me to replay the newer games. I don't know why.

*Me*
I have the same problem. I typically don't enjoy them as much as the first games.

They don't have the same spark.

*Friend*

I wish I could snoop more, in the newer ones. Where you find things or get to look at things that have nothing to do with the game outcome. It's just cool and adds more to the atmosphere.

It's funny that someone else should say that; I feel the same way! I actually have to force myself to replay the newer games, that is, if I actually want to replay them. The older games, as you mentioned, had a spark that made you want to go back into the wonderful world of Nancy Drew time and time again, and I really, really miss that.

[Rianna]

I agree. In all of the recent games I haven't really liked talking to any of the characters. I don't think that it's only because I'm not able to really choose what Nancy says, but I also think that it has to do with the conversations themselves. In the newer games, I feel as though the conversation is lacking in a way. It's definitely not the same as the charming conversations we had in the old games, and I really, really miss that.

I agree! There've been some healthy disagreements on this topic, but I've found that the conversations lately have been solely for the purpose of moving on in the game. I don't find a whole lot of "extra." This isn't to say that there aren't ANY extra talks (for instance, we do still learn some background) but I liked having the characters digress a little bit more, and be more "themselves," you know? Now it sort of feels like the conversations have been restricted to what's important to the case and story, without any fun quirks or little additions to the characters, which MAKE them their own characters.

Uh, yeah! Nancy has definitely gotten a change of attitude. What happened to the charming detective from the older games that was a great reflection of the Nancy we fell in love with from the original books? I've even noticed Nancy's tone of voice has changed. Sometimes it's not even what shes says anymore, it's how she says them, and that's what really bothers me.

*Nods in agreement*

Unfortunately this is so true. It's not really even the lack of snooping that bothers me anymore (probably because I've gotten so used to being without it ..), but it's the game locations themselves. I mean, we get informed of the future game locations and I tend to get really excited. But with the recent games (especially SPY), I think that the locations/settings are a let down. I mean, Scotland?! When I think of Scotland the first thing that comes to mind is outside .. And then in the actual game you're practically never outside. I thought perhaps we were going to get a setting somewhat like DDI or DOG where there are some great indoor settings that are rich in history, along with fantastic outdoor settings that tie in great with the mystery. But I was wrong. I also believe that the newer games don't have great character backgrounds or setting history/culture like the older games did, but that's another topic.

You've reminded me of another topic I'd like to discuss/bring up:

Educational Component

I have found that the games seem to be less educational. We are still learning but once again it feels limited. Take TRT for instance. There were several books we could read, and a few pages worth, and we learned about the French Revolution and Reign of Terror. Nowadays, we get one or two books, usually only two pages long. And we don't really utilize that knowledge nearly as much as was done a decade ago. And if we look at SPY (and a lot of people have pointed this out) so much more could have been incorporated that had to do with Scottish history. But, ultimately, we had a briefing on three things. I had expected a much more extensive history to have been provided for us.

And as to your comment about location, I also strongly agree that they aren't as spectacular. For one thing, I feel like the novelty of international mysteries has long worn-off. I'd rather those adventures were scattered more than they are (every four or five games). And from there, I don't think the locations are done justice. Again I'll go to SPY. I've been to Scotland, including Glasgow and Loch Lomond. Loch Lomond and the Scottish highlands in general were my favourite parts of that gorgeous country. And what did we get? Not a very enticing place. Glasgow was all building, Loch Lomond was pencil drawing for the background, followed by buildings.

It's funny that someone else should say that; I feel the same way! I actually have to force myself to replay the newer games, that is, if I actually want to replay them. The older games, as you mentioned, had a spark that made you want to go back into the wonderful world of Nancy Drew time and time again, and I really, really miss that.

To me, it's a struggle to put in some of the newer games (I honestly am postponing playing SPY again). Admittedly, there's the odd one I will replay (DED = ), but for the most part I'd rather replay one of the first 10 games.

[aus14]

Dear HeR Interactive,

First of all, I'd like to say that I still love the ND games. I don't want to come across as always negative and critical. I think they are still the best mystery games out there for the younger age group. There are a few things that we, the fans who have been playing for years (and possibly newer fans who have played them all), miss though, and possibly a few things that we wished would be left out of the games. I've seen many members say that we aren't specific when we say that we want some of the things from the older games back. I've created this thread to do just that. This is also a thread to say what you'd rather not see in the games anymore as well. But, I'd like to include this little reminder from veja:

So when you post here, you're agreeing to be polite and respectful of everyone's opinion. And while we're on the topic: This is not a petition; this is for discussion. So please feel free to discuss so the people at HeR can read this and find out specifically what we want back from the old games and don't want from the new. :D

I'll get this started with a few topics that the older games had that the newer ones don't, or the new ones have that I wished they didn't that I’ve seen mentioned that I agree with, and I'll add to it as we discuss so anyone can jump in and know what all we're talking about:

Blackouts
1: Blackouts when characters were leaving were somewhat avoided in the older games because I don't think ever had to lie to get suspects to leave like in TMB or SPY. But in STFD, the screen does fade from the close up of Mattie to the empty room when Mattie leaves, so I suppose I didn't really have a right to complain about that.

2: Blackouts when traveling was a little different too. In DOG, when using the boat, we were shown scenery as the boat moved, so it didn't feel like we just randomly appeared. I think if that train scene was shown every time we used the train, it wouldn't have felt so weird.

3: Blackouts when Nancy travels on foot was also different. In DDI, when Nancy went a long distance, it would fade out, fade back in with Nancy moving, and fade back out to show movement. Sometimes it would do this several times.
Now, like in SPY, when Nancy used the elevator, we didn't get to see the hotel lobby; we were just there.


Calling people for help
Now we can get hints and spoilers from the task list. I play Master just to avoid it; what happened to getting hints from Nancy's friends? That may not be quite as realistic, but it made for interesting and sometimes funny conversations.
On another note: It also means that fewer people come to HeR boards for help. (And we wonder why the boards have been so slow lately... ) But that's a topic for another board, so I'll stop there.


Conversations:
In the old games, we had choices when we spoke to the characters. We could say ‘Yes’, ‘No’, and sometime ‘Maybe’. We could agree, disagree, or say that we aren’t sure. Now Nancy takes the conversation into her own hands; for the first time I realized that the conversation options in this game were so limited. (I said this on another thread, but I felt that I should bring it up here too.) Now Nancy answers it for us, and for me, I feel like I'm watching Nancy, not controlling her. I remember a game where what you said mattered a great deal, to the point of a second chance, or having people hang up on you. I'm not Nancy anymore, and that's a big issue to me.


Nancy's attitude:
I alluded to this on the SPY discussion board, but I'll go a little more in depth here without getting spoilerish.
Lately, it seems like she's sassy when she shouldn't be and too passive when she should be blunt. I think that the reason I didn't have a problem with it in FIN was because it involved a kidnapping of someone she was close to. In RAN, someone even closer to her than Maya was kidnapped, and Nancy felt so emotionless. I didn't have a problem with Nancy's being overly blunt at times in SPY because I get that her emotions were getting the best of her.
Here's another example: Why does Nancy try to comfort Emily in CLK after the loss of her mother, but is so tactless with the Shimizu’s in SAW?
I actually had a bigger problem with other characters. What was up with Moira's "old lady" speech? I can't believe she said something about racist? Where in the world did that come from?


Snooping//Sleuthing
I think a big part of snooping and sleuthing is what all we can do in a location, not just looking through people's things. We also didn't get to click on much; in the older games, we could click to get closer looks of things that didn't matter. In STFD for instance, we can look at so much in the prop room. 14 years later, I'm still finding new stuff. And when I say we want more places to look and more to look at, I don't mean like the empty corners in TOT. When we go into a room and we're only allowed to look at a couple of things, it makes the place feel small, even though it may seem large.

I'm just going to sort of pick this post apart because I'm the cynical guy around here who has to drag everyone out of the sunshine rainbows and lolipops bottle and in to the real world.

*Correcting Removed*

1: Blackouts when characters were leaving were somewhat avoided in the older games because I don't think ever had to lie to get suspects to leave like in TMB or SPY. But in STFD, the screen does fade from the close up of Mattie to the empty room when Mattie leaves, so I suppose I didn't really have a right to complain about that.

It makes less sense for a person to just be SITTING THERE all day every day. It's not like the resoning behind character blackouts is bad or something.

2: Blackouts when traveling was a little different too. In DOG, when using the boat, we were shown scenery as the boat moved, so it didn't feel like we just randomly appeared. I think if that train scene was shown every time we used the train, it wouldn't have felt so weird.

Are you implying you want to see the same stock pictures of random landscapes every time you go somewhere? Remember how atrocious VEN was when you rode in the boat with the singing venetians, and it took forever?

3: Blackouts when Nancy travels on foot was also different. In DDI, when Nancy went a long distance, it would fade out, fade back in with Nancy moving, and fade back out to show movement. Sometimes it would do this several times.
Now, like in SPY, when Nancy used the elevator, we didn't get to see the hotel lobby; we were just there.

I half agree with the elevator thing, but there was animation for it in DED. And it was atrocious in DED and TRT.

Now we can get hints and spoilers from the task list. I play Master just to avoid it; what happened to getting hints from Nancy's friends? That may not be quite as realistic, but it made for interesting and sometimes funny conversations.
On another note: It also means that fewer people come to HeR boards for help. (And we wonder why the boards have been so slow lately... Images are not allowed on the boards.) But that's a topic for another board, so I'll stop there.

I kind of agree, phone friends, especially in TRT with absolutely NO sound effects to simulate a phone, made the game have this really dated feel that kind of fit them. There's no way to make a super modern feeling Point and Click game, it's just not a modern genre. I hate the Hint Hotline, too. And to be fair, there's a fine line between a neat nuance and something that's a design flaw.

In the old games, we had choices when we spoke to the characters. We could say ‘Yes’, ‘No’, and sometime ‘Maybe’. We could agree, disagree, or say that we aren’t sure. Now Nancy takes the conversation into her own hands; for the first time I realized that the conversation options in this game were so limited. (I said this on another thread, but I felt that I should bring it up here too.) Now Nancy answers it for us, and for me, I feel like I'm watching Nancy, not controlling her. I remember a game where what you said mattered a great deal, to the point of a second chance, or having people hang up on you. I'm not Nancy anymore, and that's a big issue to me.

It's not like it led to alternate endings or some stuff, it ultimately led to the same ending. And if you want to feel in control of Nancy, you should ask HeR to make them not Point and Click anymore. Seriously.

I alluded to this on the SPY discussion board, but I'll go a little more in depth here without getting spoilerish.
Lately, it seems like she's sassy when she shouldn't be and too passive when she should be blunt. I think that the reason I didn't have a problem with it in FIN was because it involved a kidnapping of someone she was close to. In RAN, someone even closer to her than Maya was kidnapped, and Nancy felt so emotionless. I didn't have a problem with Nancy's being overly blunt at times in SPY because I get that her emotions were getting the best of her.
Here's another example: Why does Nancy try to comfort Emily in CLK after the loss of her mother, but is so tactless with the Shimizu’s in SAW?
I actually had a bigger problem with other characters. What was up with Moira's "old lady" speech? I can't believe she said something about racist? Where in the world did that come from? Images are not allowed on the boards.

Maybe because there are Tactless people in the world? Me being one of them, acting like a cynical jerk on people I don't know in real life on forums. And Teenagers are blunt most of the time, who said Nancy just had to be this God like image that is just flawless? She should be written with flaws like any real character is. Also, racists exist in the real world. Forgive HeR for stepping out of the Full House like bottle that they've worked really hard to create and lock everyone in. I agree, it is out of character.

I think a big part of snooping and sleuthing is what all we can do in a location, not just looking through people's things. We also didn't get to click on much; in the older games, we could click to get closer looks of things that didn't matter. In STFD for instance, we can look at so much in the prop room. 14 years later, I'm still finding new stuff. And when I say we want more places to look and more to look at, I don't mean like the empty corners in TOT. Images are not allowed on the boards. When we go into a room and we're only allowed to look at a couple of things, it makes the place feel small, even though it may seem large.

Who has time to spend 90 hours looking at every piece of dust in a room. I'm pretty impatient, so I don't really stop and look around and smell the roses and have a tea party and watch a movie while looking around in the prop room.







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[Girl Sleuth ♥]

Blackouts
1: Blackouts when characters were leaving were somewhat avoided in the older games because I don't think ever had to lie to get suspects to leave like in TMB or SPY. But in STFD, the screen does fade from the close up of Mattie to the empty room when Mattie leaves, so I suppose I didn't really have a right to complain about that.

In the older games I remember a character would disappear in front of you when they left, which I always laughed at. I don't mind blackouts as much when characters leave, because I don't care for the alternative disappearing character option either. I suppose I'd rather a character was shown to leave the screen, although it's not a big concern for me.

2: Blackouts when traveling was a little different too. In DOG, when using the boat, we were shown scenery as the boat moved, so it didn't feel like we just randomly appeared. I think if that train scene was shown every time we used the train, it wouldn't have felt so weird.

I don't like the blackouts when traveling, either. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to have to watch the train scene in SPY every time we go somewhere. I think showing it only a few times is a nice compromise.
While I complain a bit about the slow elevator in DED (and I *would* have liked to have a set of stairs too) I'm glad we got a full scene, and I'd rather have that than an instant jump to the location.
What I really don't like are blackouts when traveling up/down stairs, or when traveling great distances. I'd rather walk up or down the stairs and actually see it. I also don't like being jumped ahead, like in GTH. I want to walk normally and see the locations. The fading in/out is distracting and annoying.
I love a certain scene in DDI where Nancy walks a long distance and you actually get to see her walk for a while before it fades out and back in. It makes me feel like I've walked for a while. If we only jumped ahead in that scene it wouldn't feel the same.

Now we can get hints and spoilers from the task list. I play Master just to avoid it; what happened to getting hints from Nancy's friends? That may not be quite as realistic, but it made for interesting and sometimes funny conversations.
On another note: It also means that fewer people come to HeR boards for help. (And we wonder why the boards have been so slow lately... ) But that's a topic for another board, so I'll stop there.

I've been playing on Senior/Master since ASH. I don't know how the hint system on the task list has changed since CAP, although I initially started playing on Master because I didn't like the new hint system. It's too easy to cheat when the answer is right there. Thankfully I can bypass that by playing on Master. Though even if the hints from phone friends came back I'd still play on Master because I like the extra challenge. I do like that the phone friends only gave you a nudge in the right direction, they never gave you the answer (and their advice was more vague.)
On a similar note, I don't like how verbal Nancy is with what to do next. In SPY Nancy would often say what to do next or how to do something, even if a character just told us what to do. I feel like Nancy wasn't as generous with the hints in the earlier games, and I like that much better. I don't want Nancy to keep telling me what to do. I would at least like that to be removed from the Master level.

I think a big part of snooping and sleuthing is what all we can do in a location, not just looking through people's things. We also didn't get to click on much; in the older games, we could click to get closer looks of things that didn't matter. In STFD for instance, we can look at so much in the prop room. 14 years later, I'm still finding new stuff. And when I say we want more places to look and more to look at, I don't mean like the empty corners in TOT. When we go into a room and we're only allowed to look at a couple of things, it makes the place feel small, even though it may seem large.

I completely agree with this! This is my *biggest* problem with the newer games, and I've been feeling like the newer games haven't had enough snooping for a long time. And I don't mean looking through people's things, I mean getting to click on lots of different, random things in the setting. This is SO apparent in the older games and I LOVE that about those games. It really adds to the game and helps me feel more immersed in the setting. And it's so fun on replay to be able to look at so much.
Like you mentioned, this is so apparent in STFD. We can look at lots of pictures in Mattie's apartment, lots of things in the prop room, and in the characters dressing rooms...
Also in SCK1, I remember we get to look at and read a page or so of lots of books in the library, even though the information in them doesn't directly relate to the plot.

As someone who's not a participant on the message board, she's picked up on the same thing most people are continuing to ask for. She's not following a trend, it's her own thought. And to add, she and I have very different taste when it comes to the games (you should have seen the varying ratings we gave, haha). The point is, regardless of which games you like or not, the common thing that I, at least, keep seeing by lots of different people, is a demand for more snooping.

Same thing with my mom. She's not on the boards, has absolutely no idea what the common "trends" are, and with each new game she'll make a comment on how you don't get to click on as much as you did in the older games, and she misses that.

Great thread!

[Baron of Braganza]

My Own Two Cents

I thought I would share some of my thoughts on this. I will admit that my thoughts can get in the "rant" zone but it needs to be said. If it turns out to be crossing a line, Mods please edit what you see fit if needed.

The Silent Critic Speaks...

Well then--where to start?

I guess I should start by clearing the air a bit. I have always been a fan of HerInteractive's work. I have supported each game in my own unique way. Yes, I did support RAN. It wasn't the best game but it was still a beautiful game when you boil it down to that. I have been a fan for as long as I can remember--my first game was the original Secrets Can Kill. I don't have to say that I was hooked beyond that because the mere fact that I'm a member of these boards proves that.

I have played each and every one of the these games, including the Dossiers and the Mobile Mystery. I do this because I love HerInteractive for working really hard to bring one of my favorite amateur sleuths to life. When I play their games, I'm transported to another world. I become Nancy Drew in order to solve the mystery. As a fan of the mystery genre (you have no idea how many hours I've clocked in at the bookstores browsing through the mystery section), I've always wanted to solve mysteries of my own. While life is no fiction novel, the Nancy Drew games are able to provide a taste of what it's like, even for a short while.

To me, if Nancy Drew can be an amateur detective, why can't I? Why can't I solve the mystery of who's been vandalizing the local Post Office drop-off boxes? There are several throughout my neighborhood and this HAS been happening. I mean there is a mystery (in the sense of the word) right outside my front door.

But perhaps using the Post Office vandalism is not such a good example. If Nancy Drew jumped off a bridge, does that mean I should too? Of course not! What I'm trying to say is that her character, her stories, and her drive have sparked some of my own. Perhaps I will try to see who's behind the vandalism--who knows? That's another adventure for later on ;)

On top of the games, I'm also a lover of the books. My favorite happens to be a lot of fans' favorite: The Hidden Staircase. I have a lot of the books with more on the way. You may ask as to why a guy is collecting Nancy Drew books--you know? The ones FOR GIRLS? I no longer believe they are just for girls. Just as HerInteractive used to have the slogan "for girls who aren't afraid of a mouse", that too has changed. Guys and girls alike read the books and play the computer games.

When HerInteractive first started, their goal was to create computer games for girls. They faced adversity when the rest of the gaming community said there was no market for girls--only boys played computer games. HerInteractive took a chance--and it's paying off. They created a market by attracting girls to computer games. Their games were for girls who weren't afraid to take a chance just like HerInteractive was taking. They weren't afraid of a mouse--of computers--and (here's where I think the slogan makes sense) the computer mouse used to play those games.

A lot has happened since then. On top of that, the celebratory 30th game is in production. One has to sit back and look at all the hard work that that company has gone through to create unique games for old fans and new fans alike. They have to dive into the arsenal of the dozens upon dozens of available Nancy Drew books to base their games off of.

Or at least to be inspired by the books.

Lets take a breather right here, Clue Crew. Here is the point of no return.

Here, at the onset of the release of 29th game, THE SILENT SPY, is where the trouble begins.

We have to go back to the games that fans consider as CLASSICS. In order to explain what I have to explain, we must take a look. Every once and in awhile the question pops up when it comes to comparing one game to another. There is a common position among older fans that HerInteractive's first couple of Nancy Drew mysteries are the CLASSICS. Some believe that the stories in these games are cleaner, more logical, and more of an adaptation of the book that the game is based off. This is something to take note of because it allows is to see the path that HerInteractive has taken. I won't discuss what makes a CLASSIC here since that is up to the individual player. I will say that from my own personal experience that I prefer bits of both. For me, I want a game that allows the player more control. In the older games there were plenty of red herrings that could be explored. You can do things that had no relation to the mystery. You could snoop in areas that yielded no results. To me, the newer games seem to force you along a roped-off path through the story. You couldn't snoop in areas that you could see but can't reach. You find info dumps instantly. The case closes before you want it to. These are just some of the little things I've noticed.

Now for the things that I liked in the newer games. I do love the new subtle themes appearing in the games. I only have to mention GHOST OF THORNTON HALL and the majority of you will know what I'm talking about. HerInteractive's new writer, Nik, isn't afraid to experiment with the story. There's a lot more emotion underneath the surface of the games. It's more realistic when it comes to the characters and their motivations on why they did what they did. That's great that the games have more of that.

However, it can also be too much a good thing. While the writer writes those subtle things into the game's narrative, it also feels like a cheap cop-out. A lot of the newest games have some plot holes that fans exposed. HerInteractive's explanation is that its up to the fans to come to their own conclusions.

And that's where the CLASSICS and SEMI-CLASSICS are very different from these newer and darker games. The games went from a clear-cut resolution to an ambiguous ones. I also think I know why.

Have you ever noticed how many writers HerInteractive had? If you care to look those up, you will see that alot of the games that fans say are jewels in HerInteractive's crown had MORE THAN ONE WRITER. Now why is this so important? Well, as a writer myself, I know that writing stories is difficult. It's a bit easier if you're basing it off something else--but it's only easier til you reach that point where outside expectations come in. If they ever make a Nancy Drew TV show, there would be alot of expectations from fans of the books and of the character. This is why people say that the book was better than the movie. It's an adaptation and not everything can be put in. I've noticed that some of HerInteractive's best is when they stick a bit closer to the source novel. Lately it seems that they just take an idea and craft a completely original plot. That's fine with me just as long as its tied up nicely. Frankly, the last batch of games have failed to accomplish this. It almost seems like the further and more original the plot is from the book, the more likely it becomes that plot holes will appear or the plot doesn't hold up that well.

But you can't also saying that a game is based off a game when one is not like the other. To me, having more than one writer is helpful. Having one writer is not in other ways. Let me explain it better. When there is only one writer, the story comes from him. He writes the characters, the dialogue, the plot. He can also be his own editor. When planning out a game, the only ideas on the table are his own. Now some writers can do this with experience.

I'm not saying that HerInteractive's current writer is not doing a good job. I do love his stories. I do however believe that he can do better. That being said, when HerInteractive had more than one writer, it was easier to brainstorm and to plan the story out. The games were more resolved and the logic more sensible. There was nothing in the older games that explained ghosts away with "the old heater in the basement leaking carbon monoxide". If GTH had been one of the older games, the solution would probably been something a little less contrived, not to mention convoluted. I mean, what WAS the mystery in GTH anyway? To *GTH Spoilers Removed*

Of course I'm poking fun at it but you see my drift. Had GTH been an older game, I could see the explanation being more as a result of actually investigating than running around solving puzzles to get a piece of a puzzle for another puzzle that, once e solved, results with the game ending and leaving you puzzling on what the heck just happened.

*GTH Spoilers Removed*

*sighs*

And this isn't really the point of this rant of mine. I had to start somewhere in order to reach the point that I would like people to see.

The trouble began after GTH ended. We got a most curious teaser trailer for a game that could very well make or break the Nancy Drew fandom. There isn't alot to go on and it isn't really fair to HerInteractive to judge them on SPY before it comes out. Don't get me wrong--I will get SPY like I've gotten the rest of the games. I want to continue to support HerInteractive. I also want to be heard.

In the teaser trailer we get a message suggesting that Nancy's mother was not who she seemed. Everything that Nancy thought she knew about her mother is wrong. She was--let me suppress a laugh--a spy.

...

A spy. Yes, folks, the game writer is going with that plot line. You know--the really gimmicky one because they can? I'm actually interested to see if they can pull it off because it seems something that could easily become "one of these games is not like the others..."

I still need to say why I have doubts about SPY. I will buy it but not after first explaining my doubts.

For one, this game is touching on an aspect of Nancy Drew's character that to me made her Nancy Drew. In the books, Nancy's mother is barely mentioned except she died when Nancy was three. In the original versions of the books, it was when Nancy was ten but this was revised and edited out. And smartly too if I may add. There are alot of readers that looked up to Nancy Drew because the death of her mother helped her to become a strong character, independent, kind, always helping others--etc. etc.

What I don't like is how HerInteractive is spinning a spy thriller out of nothing. To me, they're breaking canon. They are plenty of people across the world who lost their mother (or father) at a very young age. Each is their own tragic story. It was tragic that Nancy's mom died--but it wasn't some mystery either. What's wrong with leaving it as is? Does the fact that by twisting it into a spy thriller make it any more substantial? The fact that Nancy's mom was barely mentioned in the books is not a mystery to the old fans but for some reason it feels like the new fans won the day by having HerInteractive making it so. They even gave the mom a name: Kate Drew. That's already crossing the line for me. To my knowledge the name has never been mentioned in the books. We do know that she was Scottish as found in the CLUE OF THE WHISTLING BAGPIPES. I will give points to HerInteractive for setting the game in Scotland. What I cringe at is that Nancy's mom died on a spy mission, or so the SPY game description infers.

A week or two again I was reading the Amateur Sleuth blog. I came across a comment that Little Jackelope made in response to SPY. She said that the story of Nancy's mom has never really been told so they're excited to tell it to us.

Here's the kicker: THERE IS NO STORY BEHIND NANCY'S MOM. If the original book writers wrote it that way, then leave it that way! Mildred Benson, the original Carolyn Keene, decided to write that background and left it at that. It wasn't a giant conspiracy. It wasn't a suspicious death. It was just that: Nancy's mom died when she was young. And that's good enough. Now I'm not saying that having a parent die is good--it's horrible--I can only imagine what it must have been like but even that's not enough. I know some people who lost their mom or dad and who love Nancy Drew because of her backstory. She had a parent die when she was young--but she made it. Nancy turned out alright. To my friends, that little snippet told them that it was okay to grieve and that tomorrow is another day. If Nancy could do it, so could they.

Now, with Nancy's mom turning out to be a spy, it throws that small comfort to my friends in their faces. And that can hurt--the impact of finding out that your favorite fictional character's backstory is nothing more than decades of lies and deception can hurt. All because the push for more on Nancy's mom won the day.

There was nothing more to be said on the subject and each Carolyn Keen stayed consistent with it. My question to HerInteractive and to writer is this: who are you to say what really happened? Readers were fine with not knowing for decades because there was no need to know. Nancy's mom is only a passing reference in her life and that should be enough. What happens to Hannah Gruen now, the mother figure as Nancy was growing up? Forget that Hannah or even Carson Drew probably sacrificed a lot to make sure Nancy grew to become the young lady we all know.

Or, according to the newest game writer, we all THOUGHT we knew...

To me its a bit a conundrum. The games should no longer say they're based off books--more like inspired. It's a sad day for an old fan when the games change from saying "based on the novels by Carolyn Keene" to "based on the ideas by Nik Blahunka, HerInteractive Writer."

I will give Nik and his games a chance. But I have doubts--very strong doubts...




Moderator's Note:

Please be advised that the "Game Suggestions" board is meant to be 100% spoiler-free, per the board description:

"Game Suggestions *No Spoilers Allowed* Post ideas and improvements for future games here."

[EKG1000]

I 100% agree with you Penelope! amazing thread!
I too love the games so much, but agree on everything you mentioned that we're loosing!
I also feel nothing like I'm Nancy anymore!
the character blackouts annoy me a bit too, I want to see them get up and walk away, or like someone said I wanna snoop at night and stuff!
Nancy's attitude I agree on also! I really miss the old her and old attitude! though I do like the new one, it feels a bit robot-ish...though it's getting better and improved a bit in SPY...
and Yes I miss so much getting to have realistic conversations and say yes and no to stuff!
everything else I agree on too...
here's some stuff I'd like them to bring back...
the puzzle aspect games used to have- the newer puzzles are so different, some are relevant but a lot feel strange, and are barely explained! the older ones, Nancy would talk to herself more and with the help of friends like you mentioned, the puzzles were do-able! I also dislike the hint thing, though on some puzzles I get completely stuck and need them quickly...and even though people can come to HeR for help, it does help the newer players a bit...
Phone conversations- In SAW the conversations with Bess and George, and other people felt so real! Nancy would respond to everything they said and it would go back and forth like a normal conversation, in newer games it feels like it goes from one subject, a little conversation, then another subject super fast...
the way the older ones looked- not the design, which now is so amazing, but how we see them, like in TRN you would click on something and a reaction would happen and you get all these cool views of what's going on! and the beginning was neat as well! I understand HeR is trying to make the views and things more realistic, but I love the non-real looking aspect the older ones had! SPY did help this a bit though... it's such a cool escape, now it just feels so controlled... sorry it seems as if I'm complaining quite a lot haha, i'm just saying what I miss...there may be more, i just can't remember but that's a few things i want the games to include...
SPY did bring back a lot of things the newer ones had been missing, but still had a lot that could've made it a bit better...
Again though, I LOVE Nancy Drew games and love how their going so much! with just a bit of tweaking, they will be prefect, more than they already are!